Thursday, October 28, 2010

Re: [fast5] Break with protein Re: Next report

Don't know if this would help or not but I keep 2 to 3 days of salad made and ready to b eaten. This way while my meal is cooking or whatever I can chow down on my salad.
------Original Message------
From: tamaratornado
Sender: fast5@yahoogroups.com
To: fast5@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: fast5@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [fast5] Break with protein Re: Next report
Sent: Oct 28, 2010 11:34 AM

  Yes, I need to do that more. Last night I didn't plan my meal. At 5:30ish, I looked around, the meat was frozen... while I was waiting for it to defrost and cook I was eating this coconut milk "ice cream" - sugar! I am OK, but not a habit I want to form.... LOL. Sugar can give me headaches, I have to be careful about it. --- In fast5@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Sloate" <cshalm@...> wrote: "I read somewhere on this list months ago that we should be breaking our fast with protein, and I try to do that every day. I think it helps."

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[fast5] Rice Re: ancient diets and hunting

I ate a lot of brown rice when I was macrobiotic. Later I went on the paleo diet, (which I still do with a little bit of cheating) So I stopped eating rice. I was surprised I don't miss the rice at all. I feel very indifferent to rice and all other grains.

I do miss dairy though. I have been experimenting with raw dairy. But I'm sorry to say that I think I do better without dairy.


--- In fast5@yahoogroups.com, Heather Twist <HeatherTwist@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 1:49 PM, barnabywalker <barnabywalker@...>wrote:
>
> >
> > I agree that rice added to a meal makes it very inexpensive. You have been
> > pushing rice a lot more than many of us following a low carb/high fat diet.
> > My concern is with all the carbohydrates in rice, I would gain fat when I
> > included it with an inexpensive meal with fish.
> >
> > Do you have to limit your portions of rice CARBS to a certain portion size,
> > instead of a very filling portion that I had been eating with salmon? How
> > many carbs do you eat? After all, one cup of cooked rice is 44 carbs and a
> > half cup wouldn't be filling.
> >
> > Barnaby
> >
>
> I wouldn't limit *any* macronutrient, is what I'm saying. I basically
> believe the brain knows what your body needs, and what your body needs
> changes according to your age, activities, and phase of the moon for all I
> know. Even "milk" changes according to the age of the baby animal, and each
> human baby drinks a different amount of milk from other baby humans. How can
> anyone know what another human being needs to eat?
>
> Looking at the health of Asians, they typically do quite well on a very high
> carb diet, even though rice is about the emptiest carb around. This does not
> jibe with the current thinking on carbs.
>
> But one of the points of Fast-5 is that it helps the "appestat" ... that
> conglomeration of hormones and gut brain and who knows what else ... and
> THEN you'll eat what you need. So my experiment is: I cook food. My family
> (and I) take the proportions of meat, vegies, and carb that seem right and
> yummy. My family has basically glommed on to rice big time, and not only
> "rice" ... it has to be a certain kind of rice, and cooked fresh each meal.
> Which is pretty much the routine my Asian friends have ("If there is no
> rice, it's not a meal!").
>
> I didn't start out pushing rice. Basically our only deal was "anything but
> wheat" at the beginning, and I was making a lot of non-wheat pizza, tacos,
> spaghetti, steak & potatoes, chili and cornbread, salads. Then I got into
> rice, and cooked it for ME ... but the rest of the family decided they liked
> what I was making better. So now every meal must have rice, "or it's not a
> meal".
>
> I have zero idea why this works. But ... good white rice sets differently
> and does different things in my stomach, than rice-based noodles do. Brown
> rice doesn't work at all. Yet if you believe in the concept that our brains
> at some level know what is good for us, then you have to ask yourself: WHY
> did several billion people all decide to make white rice the basis of their
> diet? Pretty much all the grains grow ok somewhere in Asia, and they have in
> fact had wheat and buckwheat, barley, rye, and millet for a long time, but
> still: rice is the staple.
>
> Another interesting thing is that red pepper was an American staple that did
> not come to Asia until 1700 or so. Yet they adopted it almost
> instantaneously. They didn't adopt a whole lot of OTHER American staples
> (like white potatoes or tomatoes or corn). But peppers became the central
> item in kimchi shortly after they got introduced. So what is it about red
> pepper?
>
> Eating one meal a day ... it's pretty easy to see the effects of that meal.
> Either it is satisfying, or it is not. Either it makes you feel queasy, or
> it does not. My goal is a meal that makes me sit back and think : "Ummm. Now
> THAT was a meal!". Lately I mostly succeed in that. But the things that work
> for me might not work for you!
>
>
> --
> Heather Twist
> http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/
>


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[fast5] Break with protein Re: Next report

Yes, I need to do that more. Last night I didn't plan my meal. At 5:30ish, I looked around, the meat was frozen... while I was waiting for it to defrost and cook I was eating this coconut milk "ice cream" - sugar! I am OK, but not a habit I want to form.... LOL.
Sugar can give me headaches, I have to be careful about it.

--- In fast5@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Sloate" <cshalm@...> wrote:

"I read somewhere on this list months ago that we should be breaking our fast with protein, and I try to do that every day. I think it helps."

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Re: [fast5] ancient diets and hunting Re: Dealing with Hunger??





On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:11 AM, gabagal <gaba.gal@gmail.com> wrote:
If I can chip in here... I must admit I dont think Ive read all the post in this specific thread but am sure Ive read most.
There are so many things to consider when "testing" what work and what doesnt that I just dont do it anymore, I go with my gut feeling, and eat what feels good, whether it is carbs, fat or protein - when done sit back relax and think for a moment how nice it was, then forget about it.(like Heather does)
For example: Could the combination of what you eat with the rice (carbs) make a difference?

Exactly. Rice by itself is very boring. It's generally eaten with lots of vegies (not the horrid canned ones I grew up on, but really yummy ones) and some kind of meat/fish/egg (also very yummy). 

 
I am not a strong believer of combined eating, but do know there are certain things together that are just a no-go for me.  It could be that it feels that your body doesnt react on it, but it does.
Or what about the sequence you eat it... Rice first then Salmon, or the other way around, or should you mix it before eating...?
Maybe its the Salmon, and white fish will be better?
Anything you drink while eating - or even after the meal?

Like I said, I go with what feels right. I used to always eat a salad, then protein, then starch. Which worked. But when I started "eating Asian" (my "Japanese food" experiment), it just didn't feel right. Eating fish needs rice, for some reason. So I started putting rice in a bowl, topping it with vegies, fish, and an egg.

Salmon is not my favorite fish. I like small bony fish, preferably with the skin. And often, in Asian stores, they are sold with the guts too (esp. if they are full of roe, which is wonderful). Whole baby fish are big in Asian cuisine (they are sold as a bar snack too!). They are extremely filling and loaded with nutrients.

Large deep-sea fish were not eaten so much in the past. They do tend to be high in mercury, and as a general principle, you don't want to eat animals high on the food chain (which is one reason we tend not to eat hawks and owls and cougars, for instance).

Also, in Asian cuisine, the "dipping sauce" is very important. I have found that it needs to be made fresh each meal (which is the traditional way, as it turns out). My favorite sauce right now has 2 cloves of fresh-squeezed garlic, honey, hot sauce ("Rooster sauce" aka Sriacha), vinegar, soy sauce, and pickled ginger in it.  There are lots of different recipes, and people tend to mix up their own (like they do at PF Changs) but those are the basic ingredients (chili oil, mustard, seseme oil, fish sauce, chopped green onions are also common ingredients). You can start out with soy sauce/honey/vinegar though (about equal amounts of each).



Too many things - and once I start thinking like this it feels like my brain will "explode" too technical, too many uncertainties that I probably never will resolve, too many thinking about food, or should I say obsession with it  - so that is the main reason I now just eat what feels good.  If it feels good, I go for it, if it doesnt feel good I just try to not eat it again.

We are probably the first society in history to actually analyze food the way we do! Most cultures just have "food traditions" and recipes, which I think are mainly trial and error. A lot of Asian cuisine is based on having a variety of colors, good presentation, and balancing salt/sweet/sour tastes. You don't hear much about "grams of carbs" ! 



That is also the reason I love fast 5 (although I am mostly doing one meal per day) I dont have to measure, count, and think about food for most of the day except for about an hour or so when preparing and eating it.

Ditto. What I have found though is that if I eat something that isn't what I really wanted, the the meal feels "wasted". So I have put a lot more time into figuring out: what is it I really want to eat?

 

The other great thing about not worrying about what I eat is that I am not hungry until my next meal.  If I eat anything that I feel "is suppose to be good for my body" but I were not really into eating it, I am hungry before the next meal.  Which tells me this is not only physical for me, but on a psychological level too.

I agree. Your brain is *really good* at analyzing food content, and when it is happy with the food content, it sends "feel good" signals to your conscious mind. Your brain's chemistry set and what the "experts say" though, are not necessarily going to agree.


  
--
Heather Twist
http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/
 
 


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Re: [fast5] ancient diets and hunting Re: Dealing with Hunger??





On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 1:41 AM, barnabywalker <barnabywalker@gmail.com> wrote:


With all the studying you do, I'm surprised you don't know "why" the high carb white rice works. But hey, not everyone is willing to experiment, as you, growing "flying" chickenfeed. ;-)

LOL! Yeah, I have a VERY tolerant family.
 
I do have one theory about why this diet works. It has to do with the appestat and food predictivity (I don't know if that's a word, so maybe I made it up).

Rats don't get fat normally, even when you way overfeed them and they don't get any exercise. The food just sits and gets moldy. To do "fat rats" experiments, you need a special breed of rat.

But here is the deal: the rat gets the same rat chow, day after day. The rat knows exactly how much to eat, because it is THE SAME FOOD. If they are given separate foods, the rat eats a bit of this and a bit of that, to get exactly the right carb/fat/protein ratio, and also according to other nutrients it needs. That little rat brain knows what to eat.

However, if you don't feed the rat "real" food ... you give it a protein shake, say ... then the rat can't choose what to eat. In general, it will eat just the right amount of protein shake though, day after day.

If the protein shake doesn't have enough of one nutrient, then the rat might eat too many calories though ... in order to get that nutrient.

And here is the kicker: if you CHANGE the protein shake, then the rat eats too much or too little for a couple of days, until its brain figures out how much to eat. It can't predict, based on taste, what are the contents of the shake.

So with human beings ... in most times and places, people had something we call a "food culture" or a "cuisine". Most families had, say, 10-12 recipes that they cooked a LOT ... roast chicken on Sunday, say, or baked potatoes and steak, or rice and beans. Or whatever. But people's brains knew what was in the food, because it was the same food. And when Mom baked you a cookie ... it was Mom's cookie recipe that she always made, and your brain knew how many to eat.

Also, Mom made meals in such a way that they filled you UP. She didn't want to waste food, or have you whining for more in an hour or two. She probably didn't think about this much, just, tended to make stuff that made you full and happy.

Now, what happens today with food? 

First, it's not Mom making it. It's some food company. And that food company is not at all interested in filling you UP. They want you to eat LOTS. And they do tests to see: how many cookies will people eat? They tend to choose the recipes where testers eat LOTS of cookies. I don't really blame MSG here: I think it's more the case that Mom used lots of eggs and some butter and milk and such so Mom's cookies had plenty of nutrients and protein (because again: she wanted you to be full). Cookie companies don't use those ingredients so much: they are expensive, and also, they fill people up, so people don't eat so many of them.

Second, your brain can't predict what is in the food. The food companies are all different, and they change their recipes whenever they feel like it. Two snack bars can look and taste alike and be wildly different in calorie content. It's even worse with stuff like hamburgers and fries.

So your average Asian meal consists of rice, plus some toppings for the rice. You can eat more rice, or less rice. More toppings, or less toppings. Usually there is a choice of toppings at each meal.

What happens? First, your body knows what "rice" is. It can predict the calorie content really easily. It knows exactly how much of it to eat. Second, you can change the meal content according to what you NEED to eat, rather than according to "serving size". 

So when I say my family tends to eat "one chicken thigh" worth of chicken ... it's not because that's what I tell them to eat. That is just my observation. I serve vegies, rice, meat, sauces. They eat what they feel like eating. If I cook one huge yummy steak per person ... they still only eat part of one steak. And they only eat about a cup of rice. It's actually pretty consistent. But sometimes my daughter will just pig out and eat a huge amount of one thing. She stays pretty much the same weight always.

Also, "gelatinized" starches act differently in your body than "dry" starches. I'm not sure what all the differences are, but part of it is bacteriological. If you feed a horse dry oats, too many of them, the horse will die. The bacteria overgrow and the horse gets acidosis. But, horses race faster if they get more oats, so they do "extruded" oats, where the oats are gelatinized, kind of like oat spaghetti. Those don't kill the horse.

Steamed rice is gelatinized. Rice crackers are not. So eating steamed rice with a meal makes sense to me.



I think I'll have to go back to a more controlled experiment of white rice and salmon, being sure that white rice is the only source of carbs. It doesn't make sense that high carbs of white rice would be good, but it hasn't at first glance logically made sense that Fats are good for us, either.

You might want to stick in some good greens too, and a garlic/ginger/whatever sauce. You body wants the stuff that is in greens too, I think.

 

Thanks for the reports on your experiments, I'm going back to read more of your blog.

I hope it doesn't warp your mind too badly :-) 
 

Barnaby
 
--
Heather Twist
http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/
 
 


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[fast5] ancient diets and hunting Re: Dealing with Hunger??

If I can chip in here... I must admit I dont think Ive read all the post in this specific thread but am sure Ive read most.
There are so many things to consider when "testing" what work and what doesnt that I just dont do it anymore, I go with my gut feeling, and eat what feels good, whether it is carbs, fat or protein - when done sit back relax and think for a moment how nice it was, then forget about it.(like Heather does)
For example: Could the combination of what you eat with the rice (carbs) make a difference?
I am not a strong believer of combined eating, but do know there are certain things together that are just a no-go for me. It could be that it feels that your body doesnt react on it, but it does.
Or what about the sequence you eat it... Rice first then Salmon, or the other way around, or should you mix it before eating...?
Maybe its the Salmon, and white fish will be better?
Anything you drink while eating - or even after the meal?

Too many things - and once I start thinking like this it feels like my brain will "explode" too technical, too many uncertainties that I probably never will resolve, too many thinking about food, or should I say obsession with it - so that is the main reason I now just eat what feels good. If it feels good, I go for it, if it doesnt feel good I just try to not eat it again.

That is also the reason I love fast 5 (although I am mostly doing one meal per day) I dont have to measure, count, and think about food for most of the day except for about an hour or so when preparing and eating it.

The other great thing about not worrying about what I eat is that I am not hungry until my next meal. If I eat anything that I feel "is suppose to be good for my body" but I were not really into eating it, I am hungry before the next meal. Which tells me this is not only physical for me, but on a psychological level too.

--- In fast5@yahoogroups.com, "barnabywalker" <barnabywalker@...> wrote:
>
>

> With all the studying you do, I'm surprised you don't know "why" the high carb white rice works. But hey, not everyone is willing to experiment, as you, growing "flying" chickenfeed. ;-)
>
> I think I'll have to go back to a more controlled experiment of white rice and salmon, being sure that white rice is the only source of carbs. It doesn't make sense that high carbs of white rice would be good, but it hasn't at first glance logically made sense that Fats are good for us, either.
>
> Thanks for the reports on your experiments, I'm going back to read more of your blog.
>
> Barnaby
>


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[fast5] Re: Next report

For me, I find concentrating on a longer fasting window makes me feel deprived but if I think of shortening my eating window then I feel virtuous!

My window is 5pm to 10pm, however on 3 days a week I don't finish work until 5.30pm and get home about 6pm so I open my window once I'm home and settled, about 630pm. On 2 days a week I finish work at 4pm but then go straight over to ride and clean my horse so don't get home until about 7pm so open my window then. On the weekend I open my window at 5pm or occasionally a bit earlier depending on what we are doing. I always close my window by 10pm as I go to bed 10 to 1030pm.

Anyway what I'm trying to say is that for me knowing that 5 days I week I don't use the whole of window makes me feel good, even though I know I'm not supposed to just eat the whole 5 hours anyway, but knowing that I've "lasted" for longer than I have to is a positive thought for me.

Niki

--- In fast5@yahoogroups.com, "barnabywalker" <barnabywalker@...> wrote:
>
> I follow the one meal a day is enough and don't believe in an Eating window, I concentrate on the importance of a long Fasting window. As soon as you finish your meal you're off to the start of your 19-23 hour fasting period that much sooner. Don't be afraid to eat a bit more than a "normal" person's meal since it is going to hold you all day. You'll find that your total calorie consumption will be less than the 3 meals a day crowd, even with a large meal. Also, look more for a reduction of belly fat than weight. It will keep your spirits up when the scale seems frozen.
>
> The more I study ketogenic diets http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-ketogenic-diet (it shows agreement with Taubes and Eades), I see where avoiding carbs and filling caloric needs with animal fats and sufficient protein is what to eat during that meal. Fats are neutral regarding creation of insulin, part of proteins does create insulin, and carbohydrates really turn on the fat-creating hormone, insulin. It's the best verification that all calories are not equal.
>
> Barnaby
>
>
> --- In fast5@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Sloate" <cshalm@> wrote:
> >
> > Just a quick word (in the middle of this very intellectual hunter-gatherer discussion) to say that I have now done Fast-5 for 12 days in a row, and I CANNOT BELIEVE how easy it is to do. I have not had a single lapse, though I guarantee that I've been eating food during my window that is probably not of the highest quality (grin).
> >
> > What I've been finding is that if I eat a good-sized meal when my window opens, typically I am hardly hungry or not hungry at all at the end of my window, and on about half of my days I don't bother to eat anything after the main meal (usually around 2 - 3 pm).
> >
> > I read somewhere on this list months ago that we should be breaking our fast with protein, and I try to do that every day. I think it helps.
> >
> > I've only lost about 2 pounds (though someone here pointed out after my first report that generally speaking we don't lose much for the first two weeks??? Whoever said it, thank you -- I'm grateful for that! And has that been everyone else's experience? Or did you lose a lot faster when you first started?)
> >
> > I really think I can do this easily and safely for the rest of my life -- can't believe how much energy I have, how little effort this takes and how little thought (except for wanting to eat good food with lots of nutrients during my window). But the internal debate about "Oh, I'd love to eat that" -- if it's outside my window, I don't eat it. Period.
> >
> > I can honestly see how it's easy to do this even during the holidays.
> >
> > I have a challenging period coming up. Starting next Monday (November 1st), I'm participating (for the 6th time) in Nanowrimo, National Novel Writing Month, an insane marathon to write 50,000 words of an original novel in 30 days. It's a wonderful experience, but typically you eat BAD FOOD during those 30 days, as your stress levels can really rise. However, my plan is to keep on keeping on, and I'll continue to report in.
> >
> > Fortunately, I've also told this to two friends, who are doing it along with me and are just as happy with it as I am. I had lunch with one of them two days ago. We met at a local restaurant we both liked. She already had ordered and gotten her meal but waited for me to get mine before starting. And -- typical Fast-5er -- before she ate her first bite, she looked at her watch!
> >
> > I couldn't help laughing -- I knew why because I do it every day myself.
> >
> > Now that I'm comfortably acclimated to this I DO NOT intend to go off again. I got into the rhythm of this last year but unfortunately allowed myself to drop off and regretted it. Don't want any more regrets, and I'm so glad to hear from veterans who've been doing it for years.
> >
> > One more thing -- I took my 15-year-old son to a pediatric GI doctor yesterday and told him about Fast 5. I was wondering if putting my son on it would help his issues -- he had a four-month-long bout with vomiting last summer and the same thing just recurred about 2 weeks ago (he's no longer vomiting -- it ended after 5 days -- but because of the earlier thing, I was worried.)
> >
> > The doctor gave us a diet for him to be on -- listing foods he can have and foods he should avoid. Colin has already embraced the diet and is willing to live with the restrictions, but I also would like to try him on Fast 5. The doctor didn't say I couldn't, though he didn't explicitly say I could.
> >
> > I think it would significantly help his hunger levels, and he has a lot of weight to lose, so I think it could help there too.
> >
> > All comments are welcome!
> >
> > Susan
> >
>


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